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This is our first episode of the McKinsey Legal Podcast. In this episode, explore leadership through a new lens with McKinsey’s General Counsel, Pierre Gentin, and host Stephanie Spangler in this episode. Pierre emphasizes the value of big-picture thinking, transformative focus, and the roles of collaboration, transparency, and creativity. He advocates for inspiration from the world around us, including the arts and humanities and interpersonal interactions, to energize and inspire leadership paths.
This transcript has been edited for clarity and length.
Zoe Badger: Hello, and welcome to the McKinsey Legal Podcast. I’m your host, Zoe Badger, Associate General Counsel at McKinsey. This is the first episode of the McKinsey Legal Podcast, and I want to thank you so much for listening. This podcast is for legal and business professionals, where we’ll explore legal issues on innovation and creativity that matter to you and the world. We will feature interviews with global legal and business leaders to learn more about the ways to unlock their innovative and creative capabilities. We’ll highlight stories on innovators in the legal and business world through a lawyer’s perspective, learn from them, and explore how to amplify our own professional trajectory with insights from our guests. In this episode, my colleague Stephanie Spangler sits down with McKinsey’s General Counsel Pierre Gentin to discuss his perspectives on leadership. Over the course of their conversation, Pierre highlights the importance of focusing on the “large gauge” by having perspective on what matters, and by focusing on the transformational. He speaks on his values placed on collaboration, transparency, and creativity. Pierre also discusses the importance of adopting a mindset of subjectivity and proactively taking initiative to look within ourselves to unlock our capacity, and to be energized and inspired by things all around us, including in literature, art, music, and our interactions with our colleagues. Please enjoy this episode.
Stephanie Spangler: Hello, and welcome to the McKinsey Legal Podcast. I’m Stephanie Spangler, an Associate General Counsel at McKinsey. In today’s episode, we are going to cover innovative approaches to leadership. I’m excited for this episode, not only because of the topic itself, but because our guest today is none other than our very own Pierre Gentin, General Counsel at McKinsey & Company. Welcome and hello Pierre, thank you very much for joining us today, it’s great to have you on the podcast.
Pierre Gentin: Thank you for having me.
Stephanie Spangler: Pierre, before we jump in, I want to impress our listeners with some of your biography, as the details of your background and career are very interesting. As I mentioned, you are McKinsey’s General Counsel, and you joined in 2019. Since then, you have led the legal and public affairs functions, and advise McKinsey’s management team and board. You are also the first non-consultant to be elected a senior partner in McKinsey’s history. Prior to McKinsey, you had an impressive nearly 30 years’ experience in business, law, government, and academia. And over this time, you were partner at Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLP, a managing director at Credit Suisse for eighteen years, and you began your career as an Assistant US Attorney with the United States Department of Justice. And finally, here’s a fun fact: Pierre has been gifted with much musical talent. I have been lucky enough to witness live and in person his poetic and musical ability while strumming a guitar and singing the blues. For any listeners who would like to have their own listen, I would suggest they visit Pierre’s LinkedIn where he posts performances from time to time. Alright Pierre, have I covered it?
Pierre Gentin: Yeah, I think the famous retort to an introduction like that was Lydon Johnson who said “Thank you for that introduction. My father would’ve enjoyed it, and my mother would’ve believed it.”
Stephanie Spangler: Excellent! So, Pierre you have a unique and compelling leadership style, which is a reason why we are so excited to have you on this podcast today. So now that our listeners have a good grasp of your bio, and looking back at your career, do you recall a specific moment where you realized you yourself had leadership qualities or a moment where you saw leadership potential in yourself? And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit on that kind of realization moment.
Pierre Gentin: I don’t think I had any moment like that, I think the idea of leadership or the idea of being a manager of people, that sort of thing, is the core issue that must be developed certainly in my case, and I think it's a generalization as well, is working on yourself. Looking at yourself in exalted terms and saying, I'm a leader, I'm a this, I'm a that; I don't particularly find that helpful. I don't think that teaches you anything. I don't think that issues of self-importance move the ball forward. I think what really moves the ball forward is to think about substance. What are you actually trying to achieve? How can you work with another person to achieve something? What is it about that other person that is additive and complementary to whatever you bring to the table? That's how I think. And if you think about other people that way and think about how can I assemble the right team to address whatever problem we're trying to solve or whatever opportunity we're trying to realize, then I think you can actually be constructive in moving things forward. I think it's quite unproductive in some ways to get hung up on thinking of yourself in puffed-up terms. It just gets in the way.
Stephanie Spangler: That's great. So, digging deeper and looking at the substance of who you are, what you have to offer, in more of a team or in a collective way, knowing that you are not the only singular person there, but what you have to offer, the talents or skill set that you have to offer, it may be complementary to others that you're working with and with other stakeholders. It relates to something that I've heard you speak on before, which is finding your own voice. What are those innate qualities that you have? What is that skill set that you can offer when working with others? What is that authentic self that you can bring to the table, that you can bring to your workplace?
I was wondering if you could talk more about what finding your own voice is, what that means to you, and how that relates to working and collaborating with others.
Pierre Gentin: You know, there's a concept in religious philosophy of being the subject and the object. To what degree are we subjects of our lives or objects? To what degree do we chart our own course and drive things forward and try to realize our goals? To what degree are we buffeted around? And it really is external things that control us. And we're really quite passive in the dynamic.
I think the reality of the human condition is that it's both. We cannot be as human beings, pure subjects because we're flawed. We have all sorts of limitations. We have physical weaknesses. We have all sorts of insecurities and other challenges that are part of our makeup. And so, to some degree, we are certainly objects. But I think the goal has to be to become as much of a subject as we can. To try to unlock the energy and the aspiration that lies within us. And not wait for when is the firm going to do this for me? When is my boss going to do this for me? When is something else going to come to me? That is sort of the mindset of passivity and an expectation that other people or other things are going to solve your problems. And I just think that the more we can look within ourselves and say, what can I do with the time that I have? What can I do with the colleagues that I have around me, to do wonderful and inspiring inspirational things? What talents within myself can I develop that maybe are lying there dormant? What's the good that I can do in the world for myself and for other people on issues that I really care about? Those are all things that lie within our power, simple acts of kindness and consideration we can do every single day that are so meaningful to others, to ourselves. They don't require permission or assistance from anybody else. And I just think the more we adopt that mindset, the more we will have a fulfilling approach to life. It's about being a subject and not being an object as much as we can.
Stephanie Spangler: You touched on a lot of things in there, so I want to pull out one thing on the inspiration piece and finding that inspiration within yourself. I think one thing you also do very well, as a people leader, is inspire and motivate others. And you talk about this concept as arrows of inspiration. Could you speak a little bit more about what you mean by arrows of inspiration and why It's such a useful tool and kind of a motivation tool to remind others to really look inside themselves and find what motivates them and find out how they can contribute to the larger team or organization.
Pierre Gentin: Well, I don't think it's a particularly radical idea. I mean, it really is just a lot of us get distracted and get hung up on things that are really pretty small gauge day to day. It's some frustrating work thing, or it's some annoying thing in our personal lives, or whatever it might be, and those take on inordinate influence, even though we know that a day later, a week later, a year later, we won't even remember what it was. But while it's going on, it casts a very real shadow in our ability to focus and our ability to do things. And while we are being distracted by things that are of relatively little consequence, we're missing what I call arrows of inspiration.
There's extraordinary literature and music and art that we can access. There are ideas that can change our lives. There are human beings around us, and if you get to know people just a little bit, you realize that there's so much depth, and there's so much that we can learn from people around us, and so much we can enjoy with people around us. And it really does, I think, cause me to ask myself the question, how am I allocating my energy, my time, my focus? Because there are arrows of inspiration flying over us all the time. And sometimes they strike you and you say, “Wow, I had no idea”. I had no idea that person was such an amazing painter. I want to see more of their paintings. I had no idea what taking a walk on a beautiful day does for you. All of these things is not far away and impossible to achieve. A lot of this is just opening our eyes and really recognizing what's in front of us and transitioning from the small gauge and the negative to the big gauge and the transformative. That's something that we can all do, but it requires mindfulness because the annoyances are very powerful.
Stephanie Spangler: The intentionality in it; taking time to let yourself be inspired or let yourself be open to those moments that you're talking about is in some ways the challenge, right?
Pierre Gentin: It's entirely the challenge. And I think going back to what we were talking about before, part of being a subject and not an object is controlling your own approach, controlling more what is going to distract you and what is going to irritate you and upset you versus what is going to inspire and transform you in a positive way. We have much more control over that than we think and by focusing on things that are beautiful and things that are inspirational, it's the music we listen to, it's the things we read, it's what we expose ourselves to, it's the way we spend our time, it's the way we spend our money. There's just a lot of ways in which we can, you know, emphasize the positive and the grateful. I think that’s the thread that runs through all of this is gratitude. To open your eyes in the morning and be alive, to have the ability to access your senses. To have the ability to access your memory, to have the sensation that you love somebody. The ability to have intellectual capability, or physical capability, to actually be able to do things. I'll never forget, you know, my father, many years ago was very seriously ill, and he was recovering in the hospital, and I went for a walk with him in the ward. He was able only to take very, very small steps, it took him a long time to just walk a short distance. And he said to me, “You have no idea what it means to be able to put one foot in front of the other and take a step”.
We do all these things every day and we don't have any gratitude for it. We don't appreciate it. We don't take the time to be thankful for it. And there’s no reason for that, you know, we can choose to be grateful, and we can choose to be positive.
Stephanie Spangler: I like thinking about it as a choice, as a mindset, and something that you feel at least some sort of autonomy over, at some level. I like what you said earlier, you have a little more control than you think you do, which is, I think, really key. At the times when you aren't able to feel gratitude, aren't able to grasp those arrows of inspiration, when you can feel the energy level and the momentum in your team or in your organization slowing down a little bit or getting a little bit lower, what have you found, as a leader, helps to re-energize or build the momentum back up, kind of reinvigorate or re-enliven what you know as a people leader is there in your team or in your organization. Has there been anything in particular that you found effective in those harder moments?
Pierre Gentin: Well, I think there are two things I would point to. The first one is, look, organizations have strengths and weaknesses; All human organizations do. And I think part of where people get discouraged is about the weaknesses or the limitations of whatever institution they're a part of. It could be a legal department, it could be a company, whatever it is. I think part of our obligation, those of us who are in roles where we may have some influence, is to try to address those things and try to actually improve those things and fight for positive change. I think also be transparent with the people that we're working with that this is a journey. This isn't something where we can snap our fingers and say, okay, you know, thanks for raising that; It's fixed. There are some situations like that, but many are not.
We have to have a more long-term view and things take time. So, I think one element is that leadership is not just brushing people off and saying, well, that's not a real concern, but actually tackling things that are on people's minds to the extent you can. But I think the other one is what we've really been talking about in this conversation, which is changing the way that people look at what the opportunity is that they're sitting in. Because oftentimes people get hung up on, and rightly so, on things that are important, but they're also relatively small gauge in the overall scheme of things. How much am I getting paid, and when am I getting promoted, and all of this stuff. I'm super focused on that for me, for my team, for everything. But those are perennial issues, and none of that ever happens on your own timetable.
What I think the danger is those issues can dwarf and swallow up everything else. The reality is, and you've heard me say this many times about McKinsey Legal, we are looking at a group of people, 275 strong, around the world. When you get to know those people, we're talking about an extraordinary group of human beings and an extraordinary group of professionals. They're amazing, amazing people, and I see them in action all over the world. I sit on Zooms with them, with our leadership. And I just sit back, and I watch how dazzling they are, because they're incredible people who are seeking the highest bar for themselves as professionals, but they're also people who don't take themselves overwhelmingly seriously. They look for the fun. They look for the things that they can do together and enjoy. They look for what they can do outside of the four corners of the definition of their role. How can we collaborate together to do creative things and to do exciting things and to do worthwhile things? That is the mentality that I think if we can develop that, then this or that or the other issue in our professional lives, not to minimize any of that, but it exists in a healthier context than simply becoming the be-all and end-all of what we may be focused on at a given time.
Stephanie Spangler: That's great. Well, Pierre, I wish we had more time to chat but before we sign off. I just wanted to ask you some lightning round questions. These are questions that we will be asking to all of our guests this season, and they're focusing on our theme of innovation and creativity. So, are you ready?
Pierre Gentin: Yes!
Stephanie Spangler: All right, here we go. First, what have you seen, listened to, or read recently on the topic of innovation or creativity that has particularly inspired you and why?
Pierre Gentin: I read a book called Emily Dickinson Face to Face, which was published about 100 years ago by her niece. Emily Dickinson was a famous poet. American poet who was viewed as something of a recluse, but if you read this book, what you realize is she wasn't so much a recluse as somebody who was very much a subject. She guarded her time and who she was willing to meet with and what issues she was willing to engage in very zealously. She focused on her family, certain close friends, reading, writing, and gardening, and she lived a very full and meaningful life, but it wasn't a conventional life. It was a life where she defined what was important to her, and she acted on it.
Stephanie Spangler: Amazing. Number two, what is a quick fix strategy that you use when you yourself are in a creative slump?
Pierre Gentin: Music. Just play music.
Stephanie Spangler: That's great. All right, number three, when I say innovation, what's the first word that comes to your mind?
Pierre Gentin: Being practical. Innovation can mean a lot of different things at the same time, and I think we can lose people if we're not quite clear about what we mean, and what we think innovation means in a given situation. So, I think any word like innovation is a big abstract word. As soon as we can, we need to reduce to practicality what we're talking about in the situation that we're trying to discuss.
Stephanie Spangler: Very pragmatic. All right. Well, Pierre, this has been an illuminating conversation. I thank you again for your time and insights and for sharing your stories. It's been a pleasure to have you.
Pierre Gentin: Thanks again for having me.
Zoe Badger: Thank you for listening to this episode of the McKinsey Legal Podcast on leadership. Join us for the next episode where we explore legal issues on innovation and creativity that matter to you and the world. This episode is a production of the McKinsey Legal Department and was produced, co-hosted, written, and edited by Stephanie Spangler, with original music by David Shaporov.